After reading this, I concede you are correct. Your explanation feels more right. So, I will do something you almost never see on this board: I declare that you are right and I am wrong.
I dropped these:
I just got carried away with the purple prose of it all. But yeah, you other people are actually closer to the truth.
Posted 2/8/2012 4:56 pm
lots of christian americans are being told that by saying "I believe in Jesus" their ticket to heaven has been punched and that nothing they do can cause them to lose that ticket. They are saved no matter what. This is obviously morally repugnant and narcistic and rather unique to America, it feeds nicely into the elevated opinion americans have of themselves and their "destiny." Besides being guaranteed heaven, their 401Ks wil also go up and they'll have a big house and pretty wife.
On the flipside for those that don't have this stuff, the poor, the sick, etc, something must obviously be "wrong" with them since God is sending them all these sufferings, right? The original christian message (blessed are the poor, etc) has been turned upside down by bizjet owning evangelicals like TD Jakes, Benney Hinn, Joel Osteen, and so on.
In america, the richest and most comfortable culture in the world, jesus and christianity have become a product that is marketed like any other $19.99 piece of crap you see on early morning cable access. That's why you have such a twisted version of christianity in America. You don't really see this outside the US that much.
Posted 2/8/2012 5:09 pm
That move legitimizes telling someone to fuck off on international television. That is the message it is sending to everyone, including the children who haven't developed their social skill quite yet. It lowers the bar for civility for all of us, and I found it repugnant. Of course, I don't watch the gladiators, either, as I find that whole form of worship disgusting. Superbowl is the epitome of American overkill and mass over-consumption.
In that case, it was more an opening of the public floodgates. Brand and Ross were a pair of cunts and although I carry no torch for Sachs or his skank granddaughter it was a good opportunity to knock them off the fucking perch.
Yeah, I've heard its roaring through latin America like wildfire. The Catholic Church must be concerned.
Pentecostalism is shaping up to be the wave of the future for Christianity, it seems. It has that emotive, popuar-level mysticism that the mainline churches have all lost. This has a lot of interesting implications.
It's worth reminding those who don't know that "Pentecostalism" is not the same as "Evangelism" or "Fundamentalism." Non-Christians tend to think these are all the same but they are different, doctrinally and culturally.
Mormons arent Prosperity Theologians by nature but they have certainly been influenced by its earlier forms in American religious life. This idea has always had a strong place in certain forms of Christianity (although its worth noting that prosperity theology is strongly criticized by the majority of Christians. It is not considered theologically acceptable by most Fundamentalists, for example). Earlier forms in US history included the Christian Science movement. Ultimately it goes back to the old Calvinist/Puritan idea that material blessings are a sign of God's favor.
It's always funny to me how little otherwise-admirably-educated liberals know about Christian theology. You'd think the enemies of Christianity would educate themselves a little more about something they rail against.
To oversimplify grossly, Fundamentalism is "bible-based" Christianity, while Pentecostals put greater emphasis on "receiving the gifts of the spirit." Fundamentalists are very legalistic, anal, fussy, literal-minded. They treat the bible like a rule-book, almost like a chemistry manual that is ideally followed to the letter. What you feel or experience is less important than the simple act of obeying.
Pentecostals also will give the bible an important place but its less the central aspect of their belief system. These people seek a kind of direct mystical experience. They believe the Holy Spirit descends upon the favored among them and they go into ecstasies, "speaking in tounges," prophetic utterances, etc. This is mysticism, but iits not high mysticism...its coated in all kinds of emotive and affective dross, as opposed to the stainless detachment of a true mystic.
A dirty little secret outsiders seem oblivious to is that there is a kind of class war in extreme Protestantism. The Fundamentalists tend to be richer and more polished than the Pentecostals, who they look down on as back-country oafs. It was little remarked on at the time, but in the 2008 election this was a minor issue among Conservative Christians in the GOP - Palin represents a Pentecostal rather than Fundamentalist strain of faith, and it made the Dundamentalists, who previously had a lock on Christian political power in the US, a little nervous.
Good one, I never made that connection, but...yeah, sure. Same basic dichotomy. The Pentecostals are a lot rougher than the Quakers, and the Fundies are a lot less sober in actual lifestyle and conduct than the Fundies...they are like monster-versions of these quaint old theologies all souped up on steroids or something.
I think the word you are looking for is "uneducated".
Both Puritans and Quakers put a lot of emphasis on education. The Puritans liked their colleges. They pushed for their children to be educated. The Quakers were the real creators of US one-room schoolhouse. The Quakers may have bashed "vanity" educational paths, but they emphasized trades, technology and "being useful" while preaching about reason and the human mind as the ultimate gift from God.
The Pentecostals appear to be a rehash of the same anti-education, wealth worshiping, violence laden Southern US shit culture in a shiny new wrapper. No, thanks.
Evangelical is a blanket term that refers to a denomination who believes in evangelizing non-believers.
Fundamentalists are Evangelicals who do not believe in speaking in tongues nor being "slain in the spirit" (those people you see passing out in church services).
Pentecostals (or Charismatics) are Evangelicals who speak in tongues, sometimes dance in church (but not outside of church), are slain in the spirit, etc.
The poster above you was over-simplifying things a bit.
The Pentecostals are not that much different than the Fundies, really. Both of them take the Bible very literally. The big schism is found in the 2nd chapter of Acts where the early apostles were "filled with the Holy Spirit" and began to speak in tongues.
As far as the Pentecostals being viewed as "backwoods oafs," that depends on the individual believer and their church. The Four Square and Assemblies of God Pentecostal churches are often huge mega-churches in the suburbs of large metropolitan areas. They are not backwoods snake handler types.
Good one, I never made that connection, but...yeah, sure. Same basic dichotomy. The Pentecostals are a lot rougher than the Quakers, and the Fundies are a lot less sober in actual lifestyle and conduct than the Fundies...they are like monster-versions of these quaint old theologies all souped up on steroids or something.